Ensuring the Rights of Families Headed By Same Sex Couples is a Moral Issue---How We Get There is Not

NEW YORK DAILY NEWS EDITORIAL: Yesterday, Gov. Paterson forced the topic onto the agenda by introducing a gay marriage bill and calling for speedy consideration by the Legislature. "This is a civil rights issue, and civil rights don't wait," said Paterson, flanked by Mayor Bloomberg and other political leaders.

Agree with Paterson or not, this is clearly an issue that deserves proper attention by the Legislature. This must be the time that the Legislature breaks with its secretive, boss-ruled way of doing business.

The onus falls on Senate Majority Leader
Malcolm Smith, whose closely divided house has yet to take a stand on same-sex unions. The Assembly has previously passed bills that would legalize gay marriage. The ways of Albany dictate that no bill gets to the floor for a vote unless the legislation is guaranteed to pass. Seldom are there meaningful committee hearings or votes. All matters are decided behind closed doors.

Already, Smith is signaling that he won't bring Paterson's bill to the floor unless it's sure to be approved. That's absolutely the wrong way to go.

NEW YORK TIMES EDITORIAL: The Assembly is expected to pass the measure easily, but some advocates of same-sex marriage have said they want Albany’s legislators to make sure they can win before the Senate votes. Knowing the outcome in advance is the way law is usually made in Albany. But, as Mr. Bloomberg argued, “that is not democracy.” It’s time for Albany’s backroom specialists to allow full debates and real votes on whether thousands of New Yorkers should be allowed this basic right.

What arrant nonsense.

It is clear that society has evolved in such a manner where, to service the needs of families as they exist today, we must alter the laws to allow same-sex couples to avail themselves of the same bundle of rights, responsibilities, rebutable presumptions, tax benefits and tax penalties we afford to heterosexual couples who make the choice; to wit, the imperfect institution of marriage.

The important thing is that the ability to elect to live under such rules exists; I could care less what it is called, but am sympathetic to those who feel strongly that calling it by a name other than what it is, is, in effect, discriminatory. Thus, while, in an ideal world, I'd prefer that same sex marriage be called "marriage", I think that the rights of these families being protected is such an imperative moral obligation that "gay marriage" advocates should be prepared, if necessary, to sacrifice the name "marriage" if it will get the affected families the rights they should be allowed to avail themselves of.

I am aware that the Federal government recognizes only marriage, and not civil unions, so the argument can be made that only “marriage” will allow same sex couples to fully avail themselves of their rights . I would find this argument a compelling one--if not for the existence of the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), which prohibits federal recognition of either sort of same sex union. Moreover, while it seems clear that a strong effort will be made to amend DOMA, odds are high that if such legislation encompasses Federal recognition of same sex unions, it will encompass both kinds and call them all “Civil Unions“ (and the pressure for encompassing both kinds will come from both conservatives hoping not to further encourage passage of same-sex “marriage” legislation and liberals seeking to protect the maximum number of same sex couples).

I also think that society evolves over time, and that the state by state recognition of either kind of same sex union, either through the passage of legislation, or by judicial fiat, will ultimately aide in the evolution of attitudes necessary to change the state by state snowball effect into a gradual avalanche. Each new step builds upon the next, making the next easier, in much the way that Lyndon Johnson anticipated (using the subtle metaphor of talking a virgin out of her cherry) when he steered the toothless 1957 Civil Rights Act through the US Senate, while ever lying in wait for the next opportunity to present itself (as it eventually did with the Kennedy assassination) and meanwhile manipulating events behind the scene (as proven in transcripts of his phone conversations with Dr. King) to set the stage for the eventual triumph of decency .

As such, a victory of this nature would serve the multiple purposes of improving people’s rights in the immediate term, while creating momentum for more change and gradually changing the attitudes of society through evolution and attrition

A lot of supporters of gay marriage belittle this sort of strategy, but I will note that Vermont, the first state to implement same-sex marriage through legislation, first spent several years with a law permitting same sex civil unions, which probably served to gradually ease the way for the new law. However, initially, even the legislation creating civil union was passed over great resistance. Now after its few years of existence, supporters of the concept include the Reverend Rick Warren, Ultra-Orthodox City Councilman Simcha Felder, Utah Governor Jon Huntsman and several Republican members of the New York State Senate.

As I recently noted, in the long run, the fight to stop same-sex marriage is probably doomed. The foundations of this sort of cultural conservatism are crumbling as we speak. My five year old son already believes that gay couples can get married, because he’s seen two-mommy and two-daddy families in his religious-based nursery school, as well as at the public school he now attends. In Brownstone Brooklyn, children have even seen same-sex parent families in the Orthodox Jewish nursery schools. As a leading Evangelical, Richard Cizik, recently noted, about four in ten Evangelical Christians have an LGTB friend or family member. Another generation and what so many fear so much will amount to oh so little.

But, the long run can take a long time, and families headed by same sex couples don‘t live in the long run--they live today in the here and now. Legal normalization of same sex relationships, by whatever name one calls it, not only protects the interests of those families, but will inevitably lead, over time, to the last barrier falling as well.

I understand the counter argument--that passing anything short of “marriage” will only undermine and delay the fall of the last barrier. I think Vermont proves that logic wrong.

But, if Tom Duane and Danny O’Donnell, the sponsors of New York’s same sex marriage legislation, feel otherwise, they have the right to call the shots. Hopefully, they understand their colleagues better than I do, and hopefully, they are correct in their implied assessment that the same sex community is willing to entail the sacrifice that forsaking the much easier victory would entail.

Moreover, as the sponsors, they have the right to pursue whichever strategy they find helpful. They are not obligated to seek a floor vote on this legislation until they are good and ready to have one.

Nonetheless, the editorial boards strongly feel otherwise.

With the usual overwrought angry fulminations it reserves for matter involving our State Capitol, The Daily News has whipped itself into a lathery froth. The News cares not one whit about the ultimate result of the same sex marriage vote, they just want a vote, Goddammit!!! This owes to the News’ abhorrence of all things Albany, and specifically, the Albany process of never bringing a bill to the floor unless it has the votes to pass. There is much to be said against the boss-controlled Albany substitute for a real deliberative legislative process, and I‘ve said some of it myself. The system should change, but there is nothing inherently special about this legislation, as opposed to, say, Wick’s Law Reform, which calls out for it to be the test case for the new system they envision.

The truth is bills involving “moral” issues like abortion, capital punishment and sexual orientation related rights are already somewhat exempt from the scandalous legislative status quo. They are those rare “freebie” votes where legislators are allowed to vote their conscience, should they actually have one.

However, to suddenly decide that we must treat same sex marriage as the test case issue for the concept of putting a bill onto the floor, no matter what its chances of passage, seems to me just another example of singling out the LGBT community for double standards and discriminatory treatment. Why should issues involving their interests be treated so differently than bills involving everyone else‘s?

In contrast to the News, I have no doubt that the New York Times is sincere in both its support for same sex marriage and its abhorrence of the Albany status quo. Yet, I for one am dubious that they really believe that every bill which is a legitimate subject of public controversy must always come to a floor vote. The restoration of capital punishment would undoubtedly pass the Senate and possibly pass the Assembly. Is the Times advocating the same floor vote on that legislation as well?

For all I know Duane and O’Donnell may seek prompt action on their bill. Momentum, mostly a psychological phenomena, is seemingly on their side.

But momentum is a funny thing.

In 1975, State Senators Carol Bellamy and Karen Burstein got the bright idea to amend the State Constitution to include a gender based Equal Rights Amendment. The Federal Amendment was two states away from ratification, and the idea was to symbolically help push it over the top. Instead, the New York Amendment, and one in New Jersey, failed at the ballot box. Federal Ratification stopped dead, and actually went into reverse. Guess the heartland reckoned that if cosmopolitan New Yorkers couldn't handle such new fangled notions, how were they going to do it down on the farm?

Actually, I think the fear of a similar result in this case is overstated. Voters in “cosmopolitan” California just overturned by referendum a pro same-sex marriage decision by their courts, and it had seemingly little impact in Iowa and Vermont. A defeat by a legislature would surely be less, rather than more momentous than the defeat at the polls. Or so, at least, logic would seem to dictate.

But momentum is not based on logic alone (or perhaps at all).

More to the point, Duane and O’Donnell may not want to squander their votes. There are several legislators who understand that voting for same-sex marriage may be the political equivalent of painting a target on their shirts. Nonetheless, they are willing to vote for it in service of the greater good and suffer the risk their courage will entail, if the risk they entail results in the change they desire.

But, is it fair to ask them to entail the risk if no greater good is going to result? Especially, when the potential loss of their seats which may result would only set the cause back.

We see virtually the exact same phenomena in Congress, where the Employee Free Choice Act (AKA “Card Check”) may never come to a vote in the House, where it can pass easily, because Nancy Pelosi refuses to make her vulnerable members more vulnerable without a sure payoff in sight.

Which sort of gives lie to the idea that not voting on a bill until one can pass it is some sort of unique Albany evil (though applying the rule to EVERY BILL, and not holding real committee hearings, EVER, surely is).

But it is not only the News and Times who have decided that this issue demands we elevate process over product. I’ve heard the exact same arguments made again and again in outraged tones by non-politicians in the LGBT community.

“THIS IS A CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUE, A MORAL ISSUE--WE MUST BRING IT TO A VOTE!”

Allow me to retort.

Your outrage is merited; it is even useful. But your strategy is not.

The case for same sex marriage is a compelling moral issue. But, no more so than was the battle for Civil Rights was in 1955. But battles were not fought on every front. Battle lines were selected with care and cunning.

There are other parallels as well. In both cases, legislative victories were preferable to ones in the courts. Which begs the question, should advocates of same sex marriage pursue their goals through the legislative process, or by litigation?

The answer is obvious: “Yes.”

By any means necessary. But only when those means are likely to be productive; it is not necessary (or desirable) to shoot one’s self in the foot.

Then as now, either type of victory served the multiple purposes of improving people’s rights in the immediate term, while also creating momentum for more change, and gradually changing the attitudes of society though evolution and attrition. Perhaps Vermont would have happened without Iowa; perhaps not.

Of course, non-legislative victories in such battles come with their own detriments. Ruth Bader Ginsburg has outlined in detail the political costs of winning the battle for abortion rights in the courts, rather than in the legislative arena. The immediate and long term result in the aftermath of Roe v. Wade was to spur the creation of an angry right wing movement, whose resentment was unleashed in reaction, and from which we are still in recovery. On the other hand, the thousands of women who were immediately spared from back alleys and involuntary servitude might dissent from the Justice’s well considered opinion.

In the case of the battle for Civil Rights, there were, here and there, some legal scholars who sincerely questioned the constitutional  underpinnings of decisions like Brown v. Board of Education, but, by and large, those citing constitutional objections to judical decisions in Civil Rights cases were crying crocodile tears (it was astonishing how many self-proclaimed constitutional scholars had wardrobes containing white sheets). Calls for African-Americans to seek redress solely through legislation were, in essence, calls for them to knock their heads against a wall. By contrast, Ginsburg argues convincingly that, at the time of the Roe decision, abortion rights advocates were in the midst of a series of legislative victories and already had momentum on their sides.  

Ironically, once the momentum of judical intervention helped get the legislative ball rolling on Civil Rights, many of the same "legal scholars" chose to object to the constitutionality of whatever legislation civil rights advocates managed to get passed.    

These arguments probably can never be resolved. I cannot honestly say whether Ginsburg's argument is more compelling than the arguments of those who fought the battle for abortions rights (as Ginsburg had on so many other feminist issues) in the courts. But, ultimately, like the other debates over how proponents of same sex marriage should pursue their cause, they are prudential arguments rather than moral ones.

Vladimir Lenin once nicely summed up the expediency of choosing one’s tactics: "They have the guns and therefore we are for peace and for reformation through the ballot. When we have the guns then it will be through the bullet." Lyndon Johnson wanted to pass civil rights; he favored incremental, symbolic, often minuscule victories, until he had the guns to pass the bill he wanted. When Thurgood Marshall headed the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, he rejected dozens of worthy plaintiffs with compelling stories to choose only those cases which would yield the result he was looking for in advancing the legal battle for Civil Rights.

These days, the sprit of Thurgood is embodied far more attractively in the person of my friend, the lovely and talented Camilla Taylor of the Lambda Legal Defense Fund, with whom I sometimes engage in spirited email discussions concerning our sons’ mutual obsession with
Thomas The Tank Engine Trains (Camilla (relishing her victory): “This weekend I'm so happy I could almost take one of those Thomas the Tank Engine videos that gives you the option of ‘continuous play.’” Gate: “You are a very reliable and useful engine and have earned a new coat of paint.” Camilla: “Thank you. Luckily no one was hurt!”).

In pursuit of the goal of bringing to the maximum number of families headed by gay couples the same option to avail themselves of rights available to heterosexuals (should they chose them), Taylor looked around the country to find the state with the right combination of statutory, constitutional and case law, friendly bench and quasi-sympathetic political structure before bringing the same-sex marriage case in Iowa. She felt no obligation to bring her litigation on behalf of a compelling client in Utah or Mississippi. Though the humanitarian considerations were no more compelling in Iowa than elsewhere, she pursued the strategy that was most helpful to her cause.

And low and behold, it worked, not only for same sex couples in Iowa, but perhaps also in Vermont, and possibly soon in other venues as well. As such, the victory served the multiple purposes of improving people’s rights in the immediate term, while creating momentum for more change and gradually changing the attitudes of society through evolution and attrition

Similarly, Danny O’Donnell and Tom Duane are under no obligation to pursue any strategy but the one which best advances their cause. Their only moral consideration should be “will this help?”

I have advice both on the legislative front and the legal one. I think O’Donnell and Duane would best be served by giving their constituency an up or down vote (which I suspect most of their constituency feels is owed to them), and if they lose in the Senate, then call the bluff of those. like John Flanagan, who say they support civil unions (and those who, like Joe Robach and David Valesky, would be hard-pressed not to) and pass a civil union bill. An up or down vote on marriage would give Duane and O'Donnell the cover they would need to pursue civil unions, and civil unions would afford their constituency as many substantive rights as they are going to get until DOMA is amended (and probably even afterwards), while also creating momentum for more change and helping to gradually change the attitudes of society through evolution and attrition.

On the legal front, my advice is to sometimes take a bunt. Religious accommodation is the third rail on this issue. Vermont’s bill passed only after provisions were added facilitating the rights of religious institutions which don’t accept same sex marriage. While religious institutions are protected by the first amendment, writing such provisions into the law makes them easier to swallow (perhaps not the best choice of words). The challenge is to create religious exemptions wide enough to pass the legislation (and protect legitimate rights) but narrow enough so that they don’t swallow the rule.

Many social conservatives, including Richard Cizik, Rick Warren,  David Blankenhorn and seemingly even columnist Maggie Gallagher (President of the socially conservative Institute for Marriage Public Policy) have recently moved awfully quickly to embrace civil unions. This may be damage control, but it also stems from facts like those four in ten Evangelical Christians who have LGTB family or friends, and that “Trembling Before God” has become a popular Orthodox Jewish cult film.

Moreover, I think it is also an acknowledgement of their own victory. During the 60s and 70s, the institution of marriage looked awful shaky, with much of society exploring alternatives and questioning its continuing vitality. This was not a predominately gay phenomena, although lesbians joined other feminists in denouncing and rejecting marriage as an institution of patriarchal oppression. Once considered an anachronism, marriage is suddenly the thing everyone (except couples already married) wants.

As it became apparent late in the last century that the needs of families headed by same sex couples had to be addressed, cautious liberal came up with half-way solutions like “Domestics Partnerships.” The irony is that, in their effort to pay homage to “traditional marriage,” their solutions did more to undermine that concept than expanding marriage to same sex couples ever could.

In our society, we had previously offered couples only one option to give legal sanction to their relationships--marriage, take it or leave it. But one could not constitutionally offer the option of “Domestic Partnership” to homosexuals without offering it to others. Suddenly, in some places, it wasn’t take it or leave it--there was another option.

“Domestic Partnership,” created as a moderate alternative, was actually a far more radical idea, even if the actual substance was pretty mild. It really did undermine “traditional marriage” and begged the question of why still other options could not be created.

By contrast, gay marriage, and civil unions do not expand the menu, they expand the customer base. In fact, when Vermont enacted civil unions, it repealed its “Domestic Partnership” law.

I think some conservatives took due notice, and a growing number of them seem to understand that there are few instincts more culturally conservative than for folks to wish to solemnize their relationships in a legal manner so as to afford themselves the ability to better provide for the needs of their families by accessing the full panoply of rights and responsibilities we afford to married couples.

I’m not saying this is necessary all so great. Maybe, just maybe, a better idea would be to expand the menu options for everyone. Maybe, just maybe, traditional marriage needs to be changed, rather than multiplied. Nonetheless, facilitating this kind of support among cultural conservatives serves the long range needs of LGBT couples who want to marry. And I suspect that winning the acquiesance, if not the support of such conservatives, and swallowing some of the religious accommodations demanded by them, will be crucial to the really, really important goal of amending DOMA.

As such, it would probably help not to scare such people to death.

Logically, one would think that religious accommodation should not be a problem. When Tom Suozzi once explained his opposition to same sex marriage by talking about “sacraments,” it made me cringe. The state does not give out “sacraments;” religions do. In the secular realm , the only realm a which should matter in a governmental capacity, marriage is like property, the “bundle of rights” I referred to previously. State sanctioned gay marriage does not impede anyone’s religious freedom. Those religions which have no theological problem with it already perform gay weddings which, at the present time, are perhaps sanctified in the eyes of God, but not in the eyes of the law; if the law changes, those religions which do have a problem with gay marriage will continue to have the First Amendment right to not perform rituals they do not embrace. Orthodox Jews don’t do baptisms; Catholics don’t do brit melah; neither will be forced by the law into performing gay weddings.

But, in actual practice, this sometimes become tricky to sort out--just ask an Native American trying to consume peyote or a municipality trying to apply its zoning laws to church property. Such conundrums beg the question of some current litigation in the Garden State.

The quaint little non-incorporated enclave of Ocean Grove, NJ is full of culturally conservative people, and as any New Yorker knows, it is harder to find anyone more culturally conservative than elderly lesbians, who make up a colorful minority in the context of this slice of all-American Wonder Bread. The common areas of Ocean Grove are owned by the Methodist Camp Meeting, which holds revival meetings all summer in the lovely village green. The area also has the equivalent of "public space" which can be used for events like weddings. The community has denied the use of this space for such purposes to same sex couples. The couples have won a court challenge, which is currently under appeal.

I’m not going to discuss the legalities here, including the Jersey-centric history of the Ocean Grove as a de facto municipality (which used to block its streets on Sundays). The merits of the case on either side (which may or may not depend on sui generis issues unique to the enclave) concern me less than the potential impact of victory.

To many, and not only social conservatives, victory for the LGTB community in Ocean Grove may seem almost the equivalent of forcing a church to allow upon its premises a wedding it doesn't recognize. Good, bad or ambiguous as law, such a victory will surely be used, with apparently credibility (ignoring the unique local quirks), as a trump card to prove that state recognition of gay unions will be used to impair the right of religious free exercise and even possibly to force churches to accommodate gay weddings.

As Pyrrhus might note, one more such victory, nationally broadcast, could utterly undo the fight for same sex marriage. I think Thurgood would have taken a pass on Ocean Grove.

But, although I’m usually a strong advocate for reasonable (and sometimes seemingly unreasonable) religious accommodations, my opinions here, like my opinions on which strategy Duane and O’Donnell should pursue, are armchair quarterbacking. Moreover, they (even with my sympathy for religious accommodations) are opinions about tactics and not about morality. In the end, O’Donnell and Duane, and the LGTB leadership in other states, should weigh the competing considerations and pursue the strategies they feel will best accomplish their (sometimes competing) goals.

And the New York Times and Daily News should just shut up.



Submitted by rwallnerny on Sat, 04/18/2009 - 9:59pm.
No Gatemouth they should not shut up. When you have law abiding adult citizens of this country not having the same rights, the exact same rights, as other law abiding adult citizens, that is wrong. There is no away around this. There is no equivocating or politicking that is appropriate. It sounds like Gatemouth would have supported those many politicians who tried to find ways to accomodate african american voters in the early sixties *without* passing the Civil Rights acts. As if one could say that lessening discrimination or pushing discrimination to places more hidden was somehow some substitute for laws that would disallow it altogether. Gatemouth you cannot ask the gay and lesbian community to swallow "accomodations" and "compromises" with religious groups any more than you could have asked Martin Luther King and the SCLC to "cut deals" with the Strom Thurmonds and George Wallaces of the '60's south. What's right is right. I think more and more people in this country are coming to realize that if you can't protect one group's civil rights you can't protect anybody's. Support of equal legal lmarriage rights for all adult citizens of this country should be a litmus test now for all progressive voters. How is Rock Hanshaw for instance, running for city council this year in Brooklyn, really a liberal progressive candidate when he has openly opposed the rights of gays to get married? Now Rock says his position on gay marriage has evolved to the point where he no longer has an opinion one way or the other, which is clearly a BS way of trying to accomodate those left leaning voters who aren't or wouldn't be comfortable with his being against gay marriage, and those more religious voters in that district who might not be comfortable if he supported gay marriage rights. It is a copout. We don't need politicians waffling on such important issues either while they are running for office or while they are in office. There isn't a voter in that district who should vote for Rock unless he comes out in support of laws that would establish that ALL law abiding adult american citizens should be able to get married. Gatemouth's support of politicians "weigh the competing considerations and pursue the strategies they feel will best accomplish their (sometimes competing) goals" is basically him saying he supports politics as usual. Politics as usual being politicians putting their own personal interests and accomodating the powers that be over taking strong moral and ethical stands. Over doing what is right. Nobody is telling these churches that they have to hold gay wedding ceremonies in their buildings. So what if a gay couple can't get married at St. Patrick's cathedral. All they want is the right to ger married in some church, any church they might find, just like anyone else. There is nothing wrong with that. No accomodating. No lookinhg for the middle ground when there *isn't* any middle ground. Just do the right thing.
Gatemouth's picture
Submitted by Gatemouth on Sat, 04/18/2009 - 10:14pm.

I didn't even read it all, because you don't have the decency to separate your thoughts into paragraphs, but if you even spent a second reading what I wrote, you would understand they could care less about same sex marriage--they only care about "process" in Albany, and they are willing to sacrifice the concerns of thousands of New Yorkers for the "greater good" of having a vote. I, on the other had, am interested only in what works.

The Times, on the other hand, refuses to acknowledge that their goals may be in conflict--they refuse to make choices and set priorities. My priorities are clear--do what will get results--there is no moral imperative to have a vote, unless having a vote will be helpful. I am solely interested in getting results for real people.

And shame on you for implying otherwise, you ignorant schmuck. 

 

 

 



Gatemouth's picture
Submitted by Gatemouth on Sat, 04/18/2009 - 10:26pm.

I forced myself to get thru the rest of your ignorant screed, and you are still an imecile. I said they should make what compomises were necessary to pass the bill. That's what they did in Vermont (where they added relgious accomodation language (which even Maggie Gallagher thought was substantive), you imbecile. That's what Johnson did to pass the voting rights act and the Civil Rights Acts. Read a little history and don't accuse people of saying and doing things they haven't said or done.

Saul Alinsky once said it was possible for him to forsake compromise and other indelicacies to keep his purity, but then he'd be selling out the hopes of thousands and it would be tough to sleep at night trying to tuck his big angelic wings under the blanket.

But the stupidest thing you seem to assert is still your delusion that the News' and Times' call for a vote, no matter what the consequences, is somehow of benift to the cause of same-sex marriage.  

 



Rock Hackshaw's picture
Submitted by Rock Hackshaw on Sun, 04/19/2009 - 2:28am.
I used to be a big fan of your columns Gatey -when you were serious about your writing- and this one just serves to remind me why. It is a great column sir. As usual Wallner (the WALL-NUT) has to drag my name into it: but that's okay. I loved this column for so many reasons; and especially because I have been struggling with this "issue" on many levels for many years now. I would still like to hear you address for once, what happens if after same-sex marriage passes, that polygamists demand the right to marry more than one person: under what legal basis do you then deny them that right? People like Wonk and Bouldin seem to think they have addressed this point, but they have not (as least not as yet); and not to the satisfaction of many -myself included.

Gatemouth's picture
Submitted by Gatemouth on Sun, 04/19/2009 - 5:58am.

As I've implied, same-sex marriage advocates really are not advocating changing the fundamentals of traditional marriage. It's been a long time since marriage was about procreation; and if you think procreation is somehow defined in our society by marriage, I'd ask you to spend the day in a costody and visitation part in Kings County Family Court.

Except in the four common law states (where the presumptions creating de facto marriage may be somewhat unprepared to encompass couples of the same gender), the addition of same sex couples to the marriage laws is not going to create that much in surprises which will later have to be addressed by state legislatures--much of what would have needed change once has already taken place in hetero-marriage statutues over the last 40 years. But adding polygamous relationships would require fundamental re-writes of the law to accomodate it, which I bet about 49 of our states are totally unprepared for.  

But, I may be the wrong person to ask, since, I have chosen to, in passing, raise questions implying that, maybe, just maybe, it would not be so awful for us to ponder alternatives to traditional marriage. My shout-out to the 60-70s was meant to encompass alternative models like communal relationships. While I'm not here to advocate for legal recognition of any such relationship, I do not see why one is expected not to raise question concerning whether the manner in which we've chosen to organize society is the proper one.  

That being said, I thnk you are overstating the impact allowing same sex marriage will have. Rationally, one would expect homosexual to be pioneers in questioning the underpinnings of the entire status quo. Instead, they have chosen in large number to try to buy into it. I think that, rather than stengthining advocates of more radical alterntives to traditional marriage (polygamy, communal relationships etc), the move towards same sex marriage strengthens the status quo. 

I mean, be serious--where do you see any groundswell for polygamy or other alternative modes of family organizations? There seems little to no possibilty of achieving such change through legislation in our lifetimes, and I don't think there is an equal protection argument which embraces polygamy (show me the law review article), or any rational  basis to fear that it will be imposed by judicial fiat. Morevoer, where is the need? Look to your left and right, and one finds a family heaed by a same sex couple--we are dealing with their issues, because dealing with them has become unavaoidable. I suspect that in at least 49 states, advocates of polygamy cannot say the same.  



Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Sun, 04/19/2009 - 8:23am.

Vermont's Gay Marriage Law Contains Strong Religious Exemptions

Last week, Vermont's legislature overrode the veto of Gov. Jim Douglas and became the fourth state to authorize same-sex marriages. As the Burlington Free Press reported last week, this is the first time that gay marriage has been approved legislatively, rather than by the courts. Largely uncommented upon until an article in today's New York Daily News are the strong religious freedom exemptions included in the new law (full text of S. 115).

Statutory provisions on who may solemnize marriages were amended to include this provision:

[18 VAA Sec. 5144(b): ] This section does not require a member of the clergy ... to solemnize any marriage, and any refusal to do so shall not create any civil claim or cause of action.
The provisions of Vermont's Banking and Insurance law relating to Fraternal Benefit Societies was amended to include the following:
[8 VSA Sec. 4501(b):] The civil marriage laws shall not be construed to affect the ability of a society to determine the admission of its members ... or to determine the scope of beneficiaries..., and shall not require a society that has been established and is operating for charitable and educational purposes and which is operated, supervised, or controlled by or in connection with a religious organization to provide insurance benefits to any person if to do so would violate the society’s free exercise of religion, as guaranteed by the First Amendment to the Constitution of United States or by Chapter I, Article 3 of the Constitution of the State of Vermont.
Finally, the law amended Vermont's provisions banning discrimination in public accommodations to include the following:

[9 VSA Sec. 4502(l):] Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a religious organization, association, or society, or any nonprofit institution or organization operated, supervised, or controlled by or in conjunction with a religious organization, association, or society, shall not be required to provide services, accommodations, advantages, facilities, goods, or privileges to an individual if the request for such services, accommodations, advantages, facilities, goods, or privileges is related to the solemnization of a marriage or celebration of a marriage. Any refusal to provide services, accommodations, advantages, facilities, goods, or privileges in accordance with this subsection shall not create any civil claim or cause of action.

This subsection shall not be construed to limit a religious organization, association, or society, or any nonprofit institution or organization operated, supervised, or controlled by or in conjunction with a religious organization from selectively providing services, accommodations, advantages, facilities, goods, or privileges to some individuals with respect to the solemnization or celebration of a marriage but not to others.

 


Submitted by EnWhySeaWonk on Sun, 04/19/2009 - 10:55am.

First of all here's an interesting article on the difference between Polygamy and Homosexuality, that might shed some light.

Secondly as Gatey implied, there's no movement for Polygamous marriage and I'll tell you at least one reason why. A lot of polygamists can’t use the same equal protection argument as we do with the same-sex marriage issue. We want the same rights. Polygamists are, by and large, not actually looking for equal rights. Not that all polygamists are Mormon Fundamentalists, but taking them as an example, women aren't allowed to have two (or more) husbands in their culture, but they would de facto have to argue that they should be able to in order to previal with same-sex marriage as precident. They can't make an equal protection argument unless it would grant everyone the right to multiple spouses. In addition, there are very strong societal issues with whether additional wives are actually abused or intimidated into a lot of these marriages; age is also an issue. They are hardly equal partners in these marriages. Although, come to think of it, if you look at the “traditional” view of marriage, that shouldn’t matter: Women were considered property in “traditional” marriage. But that's changed, hasn't it?

As Gate also mentions, there are legal issues that would have be sorted out, that would not be for same-sex couples. Take inheritance. If a married person dies intestate (no will) everything goes to the spouse. Man/Woman, Man/Man, Woman/Woman, same difference. Example: Under legal polygamy a couple is married 10 years, takes on a new spouse after 5 years and another one after 10 years; one of the 10 years spouses (the breadwinner) dies on the honeymoon with the fourth spouse. What happens? 1/3 of everything goes to the remaining three? Hardly seems fair, although it’s what happens if some gets a divorce, remarries and dies on the honeymoon, the new spouse gets everything if there’s no will. The point is, we don’t just erase “Husband” and “Wife” and substitute “Spouse 1” and “Spouse 2” on the form and wherever it’s specified as such in the code, it’s much more complicated than that—new laws have to be created to give such partners “equal protection.”  (And inheritance is only one example, what about divorce? What happens when the spouse of 5 years in the previous example wants out? What does he get?).

In any case, it's also a slippery slope argument to bring up polygamy. The questions isn't "what will this lead to?" The question is, does this group of people have equal rights under the law, and if not, should they? If you reach the conclusion that same-sex couples do not have the same rights under the law, and they should, you should be for same-sex marriage. It's not fair to an oppressed group to say, "but what else might happen as a result if we give you the rights I agree you're entitled to?" Either we deserve equal rights or not. If we get them and that leads to other things, let's take up polygamy or whatever as they become real issues. Putting polygamt, out there as a potential bad consequence just isn't a fair thing to put on our movement.
Rock Hackshaw's picture
Submitted by Rock Hackshaw on Sun, 04/19/2009 - 11:55am.
As usual Wonk you skirt around the discussion with obfuscations. The question is simple: on what basis do you disqualify the arguments of polygamists for the right to marry more than one person. Male or female polygamists don't matter. Because women aren't asking for the right to have more than one husband now, doesn't mean they won't demand this right later. Anyway I really don't want to be dragged into another round of name-calling with you Wonk; so I will end here.

Submitted by EnWhySeaWonk on Sun, 04/19/2009 - 12:27pm.
I don't think I skirted it, but how about this: I will accept, arguendo, your premise.

Accepted (only for argument sake), polygamists, seeking completely equal treatment for their relationships, regardless of whether it's men or women having multiple partners, could use the same equal protection argument to have their relationships recognized, and as such, if such a movement existed (which it does not in any organized sense), they could use the precedent of same-sex marriage being recognized to force recognition of their relationships.

Same-sex couples are being treated unequally under the law.

Same-sex couples should have the same rights as opposite sex couples.

Why does the fact that another group might use that precedent for their agenda change anything about same-sex couples’ rights?

Either we deserve equal rights or we don't. The consequences of giving us those rights do not in any way mean we shouldn't get them.

Unintended consequences is not a logical reason to deny people rights.

Oh, and there is no such organized movement for polygamy; there's also no societal acceptance of polygamy the way there is now for homosexuality, etc., that would have to occur first before they could even use the precedent effectively.

I suggest, that if society moves in the direction of normalizing polygamy, which I find extremely unlikely, that they should have equal rights. But the facts are that polygamy engenders so many issues, including sexism, misogyny, the aforementioned legal complications and complete lack of mainstream acceptance, that using the argument "polygamy might happen if you get full rights" is such a remote possibility as to be rendered an absurd argument against it.


Gatemouth's picture
Submitted by Gatemouth on Sun, 04/19/2009 - 12:30pm.

Actually, for Mormon related polygamy, as well as the Jewish and Islamic sort, the free excercise clause would seem a far better leg to stand on legally than the equal protection clause.

Right now, everyone, no matter what their gender, or sexual orientation, is denied the right to be married to more than one spouse at a time, so I'm not seeing any equal protection argument.

By constrast, the Religious free exercise argument so treasured by conservatives when opposing same sex marriage actually gives religiously based polygamists a leg to stand on, even if the case law has alway been against them. And, to be frank, I think the case law has gone against them not because of the merits, but  because it reflects the underlying atttudes of the society, which I don't see changing anytime soon. 

The threat of same sex marriage enabling polygamy is a strawman, a hypothetical about as plasuble as one of those involving God having a wrestling match with Clark Kent and Eleanor Roosevelt. Even worse are those hypos involving pedophilia (which implcates those who are infants in the eyes of the law), and animal sodomy (there is no such thing as a consenting adult dacshund). Legal recognition ain't happening.

I do agree with Rock on one point; anchronistic arrangement like polygamy and non-traditonal ones like free love communes and Fred Newman-therapy groups (now converted into  "I Like Mike" Clubs) do exist, and not all of them involve male domination and female subjugation. All that is not vanilla, is not therefore chocolate--Howard Johnson's made 28 flavors and Baskin Robbins 31. I'm not so sure society shouldn't give legal recognition to alternative forms of family organization other than marriage--but, it ain't happening anytime soon, even if the Independnce Party demands it during its negotiations with the Mayor.     



Mary Alice Miller's picture
Submitted by Mary Alice Miller on Sun, 04/19/2009 - 2:02pm.

"arguments" that legalizing gay marriage might lead to polygamy seriously, especially from Black communities. Bogus "arguments" happen all the time.

1) Sloppy, lazy analysis includes "what ifs" that don't apply, distract from the original issue, and do not lead to any remotely concrete resolution. Logic 101. That is why our communities are in the conditions everyone sees.

2) When Blacks (usually men) invoke polygamy, they are not talking about Mormon/ Latter Day Saints polygamy, where the husband is responsible for building a domain large enough to house all his wives and children, provides for them, and is there raising his children. Black/ ghetto polygamy is usually based upon the village raising the child, where the village is really an abandoned single female parent (often very young and not even at the age of consent when impregnated by an adult) supported by welfare/ tax payers or mother working a low wage job, with sporadic or no court ordered child support. If the child knows his/ her father, visitation is an issue and a substitute for parenting. In ghetto polygamy, usually the man never even bothers to marry (before or after impregnating) even the first "paramour." Many men males in ghetto polygamy situations do the night crawl, where each unmarried "wife" holds down her own lodging; the unmarried "husband' makes the rounds, does occasional "conjugal" visits.

No need to worry about them lobbying for legalizing polygamy. Most don't even marry the first "wife". That would take effort, character development, and loyalty to one woman and one set of children. Ghetto polygamy is just an excuse to womanize, because, of course, they cannot/ choose not to disciple their own zippers. Arrested adolescent development rules.  It's the male's perogative -- excuse -- under cover of polygamy.

There is no public conversation in Black communities regarding the why or how to form heterosexual marriage as a basis of stable families and communities, not even for the sake of children and perpetuating the race. I guess they assume Blacks, like roaches, will survive no matter what. Why they care about denying gay marriage? I have no clue. They can't even form/ stabilize substantial numbers of straight marriages.

Polygamy is a non-starter.



Gatemouth's picture
Submitted by Gatemouth on Sun, 04/19/2009 - 4:36pm.

..but I think I answered your question. One can deny polygamists recognition of their "marriages" because the articulable basis for expaninding such a right to same-sex couples just doesn't apply to them> I've said this in a few different ways, and I suppose i could come up with a few , but I think my snswer is sufficient. I also think the fear you raise is in reality only a theoretical one.

As to Mary Alice, her grudge does not seem to be against you in particular, but rather concerns black men in general. Beyond that, discretion would seem to be the better part of valour here,  and I will refrain from saying more.

Whoooo! 



Rock Hackshaw's picture
Submitted by Rock Hackshaw on Sun, 04/19/2009 - 4:40pm.
whether or not people understand what they read. All I have asked is ONE simple question that hasn't been answered -because nobody wants to answer it (or maybe they cannnot). Mary Alice: I don't attack your intellectual positions as BOGUS: do I? Last week you were lecturing me to read the constitution (imagine your audacity here); this week my question is bogus? What gives? Is this some personal vandetta? Do you really understand the nuances of this entire issue and the potential ramifications of the proposed changes on society and the world? I will leave you with one last question: Is "marriage" a human right? Or is it a human choice? Many of us who have been agonizing over this issue, have come to our positions (whatever they are) after lengthy analysis and study; it isn't nice to dismiss someone because they don't care to just jump on some bandwagon whimsically. I generally give serious thought to whatever I say, support, write and/or do.

Rock Hackshaw's picture
Submitted by Rock Hackshaw on Sun, 04/19/2009 - 5:07pm.
Although I must admit that you came the closest to attemtpting a direct answer, I say you fell short on many levels. For example; whether or not it is in fact hypothetical to consider polygamists in this debate, is moot. There was a time when we never even anticipated gays demanding to marry someone of the same sex. That has obviously changed. The idea that there is no groundswell out there, supportive of polygamous marriages, so we need not look at the potential for such demands is absurd. So when the demands of someone to marry their mother, father, sister, brother, aunt, whoever (related by bloodlines) start hitting the door (same sex or not); what do we say? You all have no standing; you have no rights to such demands (or arguments). And we will deny them because.........? And what about bi-sexuals? Can they not demand to marry both male(s) and female(s)? Point is this: marriage will always have limits and restrictions; the question is what is the basis for denying someone who demands to marry whoever they choose. Is this just about power? Or is this really about selfishness? I am on the fence now because there is a real issue that you raised here, about protecting the basic human rights of families on the rainbow; and also the rights of those who enter into same sex living arrangements (unions). We have to consider the dignity (amongst other things) behind these demands; and we should. I have always argued for the rights of gays to make their demands, but they still have to convince the majority that thier demands are solid. Some people have suggested civil unions as an alternsative to marriage if simply because marriage differentiates between husband and wife (male and female) and this requirement cannot be met in same sex marriages. This is a loaded issue, and the attempt to put down those who are being deliberative is silly.

Gatemouth's picture
Submitted by Gatemouth on Sun, 04/19/2009 - 5:40pm.

...for starters, the stricture against incest easily meets a "strict scrutiny" test. I doubt any court would not find it a compelling government interest to prevent incest.

You don't seem to get bi-sexuality at all. Bi-sexuals are people who can go either way--most generally don't go both ways at once (I know, because I've dated several bi-sexual women, and boy did I try!). When a bi-sexual is in a relationship which could result in marriage, they generally want to marry that one person and make a life with them. They are generally not more promiscuous than heterosexuals or homosexuals, although they do get more opportunities. If they do get an unbearable urge while married, they generally behave like married heterosexuals and homosexuals--they cheat. Like most married heterosexuals or homosexuals, most married bi-sexuals do not generally desire to be married to more than one person at the same time. So bi-sexuality is just a red herring.      

As for polygamy, let me give it one more try.

For starters, homosexuality is a sexual orientation. Polygamy is a lifestyle choice--even in most relgions where it is permitted. Since gay people cannot get married in most places, polygamists are, by and large, heterosexuals. Their sexual relationships generally take place one partner at a time, and religions which permit polygamy generally forbid any of the real fun possibilities. Even if they didn't,  the fun stuff, whether practiced within marriage or without,  is generally considered more a variation than an orientation.

More importantly, you don't seem to graps the political reality here.

Forty years ago, the Stonewall Riots took place, pretty much giving birth to the modern movement for gay rights. It took nearly 40 years to get to the point where same sex marriage is even an issue. Polygamists haven't had their Stonewall yet--instead, they had "Big Love," which only set back their non-existent cause further. But let's grant them a Stonewall, and say it took place last week. Forty years from now, you and I will likely both be dead. I think we can probably postpone this argument until that time when it may actually be ripe for discussion.



Gatemouth's picture
Submitted by Gatemouth on Sun, 04/19/2009 - 6:21pm.

I don't think I've put down anyone for being undecided about same sex marriage--in this article, I've not even put down those who opposed it. And, in the past when I've been cruel to opponents of same sex marriage, it was for exploiting the issue in a questionable manner for political gain. Recently, I even posted a piece calling upon liberals to be respectful to socially conservative voters who might be receptive to other aspects of their message. And, although I did engage in some levity concerning your ill-informed view of bi-sexuality and other matter of eros, I've otherwise left you unscathed. 

The only ones i've attacked here are the Daily News, the NY Times and Wallner. And the last two basically share my position on the issue at hand, while the News, whatever its position (I think it can be summed up as they would like to sodomize Malcolm Smith,and not in the fun way) was attacked on other grounds.  



Submitted by rwallnerny on Sun, 04/19/2009 - 6:52pm.

Rock the answer to your question is that the government should not be in the business of legislating morality or making decisions on how adult citizens should lead their private lives.  We are people of free will in this country and the government has no business telling people what other adults or how many other adults they can or cannot marry.

If some man wants to have two wives, or some woman wants to have two husbands-- or if a man wants to marry a man or a woman wants to marry a woman-- what business is it of yours or the government's?  I fail to see how Rock can campaign as a liberal progressive democrat when he refuses to endorse complete and full and equal civil rights for all adult american ciitzens.

And Gatemouth maybe I did leave paragraph breaks out of my previous post but at least it wasn't poorly written endless rambling like yours.  You could have distilled everything you said in your original post but instead your rambled for eight pages and then scream at people who you claim might have missed your point.  Your posts are too long.  You desperately need an editor.  One who tell you that not only should you keep your remarks concise to get your points across, but that responding to the people's posts with cussing and name calling is hardly gentlemanly.  The real Gatemouth Brown, whom I saw in concert several times,knew something about style.  You don't.

 

 


Gatemouth's picture
Submitted by Gatemouth on Sun, 04/19/2009 - 7:20pm.

Wallner Asks: "If some man wants to have two wives, or some woman wants to have two husbands-- or if a man wants to marry a man or a woman wants to marry a woman-- what business is it of yours or the government's?"

If one only married as a matter of religion, without a state license, you would be corect. If one chose to live with a partner of their choice under their own rules, you would be correct as well (except in common law states).

But when one chooses to obtain a marriage license, you are legally agreeing to adopt the State's rules. You acquire obligations. You can only relieve yourself of those obligations through a process run by the State, and only under the State's terms (in case you have never heard of it, it is called "Divorce"). The State can force you to provide support to your ex-spuse or vice versa. It can divide your property. And, it can, under certain circumstances, send a man with a gun to your door to enforce those rules.

LGTB people can already get a religious marriage if they choose the right denomination--they want the right to civil marriage, and I agree with you that there is no reason they should not be able to get them. But, even if I agreed with you about the women who wants two husbands (and I'm not sure I don't), I think your assertion that the government has no right to stop it is absurd.

You see, Wallner, it is not a matter of STOPPING such marriages, it is a matter of the government not having a means of accomodating them.

How, forinstnace, to use Wonk's example, would property be dividied under such circumstances if a husband died intestate? To recognize such marriages in the same manner LGTB couples  seek is not possible, since LGTB couples seek only to live under the same laws as straight married couples, and those law sas currently written are unable to accomodate more populated relationships.

So, as usual, you have posted without any inkling of understanding about what you are writing about. 

Ironically, I think Rock, Wonk and I all all agree on that point.



Mary Alice Miller's picture
Submitted by Mary Alice Miller on Sun, 04/19/2009 - 8:20pm.
has checks and balances to prevent the tyranny of the majority. A referendum on gay marriage will not be the final answer. Witness California. There are constitutional scholars who can, and do, specialize on one aspect of the document, and drill down deeply. Conversations regarding the Constitution can be nuanced, even if not labeled so. Rock, please do not take the term "bogus" as a personal attack. I could have used another adjective, but chose bogus as the lesser of the evils. When I disagree with you, it is not a personal attack. I am looking at the argument (not you) through a broader lens. You are not the only one with your views, or ambivalence. In addition, your, or my, opinion at a particular point in time is not the final answer on anything. The process of discussion is most important, and too often prematurely stunted. My experience reading and listening to arguments in my communities has taught me that basic flaws in logic can be popular, but have wide ranging consequences, especially when not challenged, as is regularly the case. They can also be prevented, instead of leading to suppression of the free flow of ideas. Even unpopular ones. In many cases, it seems "leadership" dreams up issues, and positions on the same, without ever having taught the community all positions related to an issue, or conducted even a cursory survey, much less statistical analysis. They then "sell" that dream as a point of community activism that purports to address issues in the community. Having done public service on the grassroots level all my life, I have seen what happens at the membership meeting level, when issues critical to the community that beg for community involvement and solutions, get raised and suppressed because of myopic, narrow minded, and yes, sexist decisions from leadership. Questioning those decisions is seen as disrespectful to elders. I have been told they are "divisive" by various leaders, many of whom don't know each other. Asking for advocacy on behalf of children is met with silence, yet the clarion call is for unity within the community. What people would not organize in unity around their children, who are their bridge to the future? Where is the group plan for itself, and its survival? Who chooses the issues to unify around? And what if that unity is at the expense and destruction of a large segment of the group, namely women, and more so, children? (I have been literally threatened because I choose to advocate on behalf of children, who I see as more important than the career, sexual, political, financial, self-centered, or ego driven agendas of adult men or women.) There is something in the quality of thinking and critical analysis that limits development within the community. That is the biggest reason the list of publicly announced "Black issues" is generally limited to "stop-actions": stop police brutality; stop discrimination; stop mass imprisonment, even for those whose actions deserve it; stop corporations from putting out music, videos, games that call Black women b' and hos and glorify crime; stop naming your store "Obama Fried Chicken," stop gays from marrying, etc., always focused on the "other". While some of these issues are serious, many people within the community see this as merely street theater; the farce, and stunted family and community development that arises as a result, must be obvious to outsiders, who are content to have them used as tools of containment. Painfully missing are other types of thinking and analysis -- innovation of self-directed agendas focused inward, for mental, physical and social health within the community; critical challenges to self and community destroying personal behaviors; the creating of a set of expected behaviors that have one goal -- building strong families/marriages that are the foundation for strong communities -- internal development of issues that have nothing to do with "stop-actions". The Nguzo Saba (Kwanzaa principles) are not enough. Enough. More on all of this at another time.

Mary Alice Miller's picture
Submitted by Mary Alice Miller on Sun, 04/19/2009 - 8:43pm.
In addition, I do not have a grudge against my brothers. I love them, and expect better of them. And I should. The community needs a better means of heterosexual family formation. We should be too busy focusing on our marriages, or lack thereof, to have time to deny gays the opportunity to marry. I only described, in the best possible terms, what happens in urban communties not just in NY, but all across the country. It happens in the proverbial trailer parks, too. What I described is the root cause of perpetuating generational poverty, juvenile crime, drop out rates, the gap between Black and white wealth, foster care, the black male 50% unemployment rate, imprisonment, teen motherhood, the spread of STD's including HIV, tax payer paid welfare even when the economy is growing, etc. This issue is bigger than a grudge against men. As a journalist, I would love to have the resources to conduct a study of sample census tracts that contain public housing developments (projects), for instance. I would research what is the actual relationship between cultural behavior and poverty across cultures. Everyone, including community leadership, sees, and tax payers pay for, the pink elephant in the community. Yet do nothing, not even talk about it.

Gatemouth's picture
Submitted by Gatemouth on Sun, 04/19/2009 - 9:21pm.
Mary Patrick Moynihan.

Mary Alice Miller's picture
Submitted by Mary Alice Miller on Sun, 04/19/2009 - 10:46pm.

The Mr. Dumda**'s loudly complained about that report, even though WEB DuBois told them the same thing in The Philadelphia Negro and Souls of Black Folk 100 years ago. Franklin Frasier also wrote on the subject years before Moynihan.

Too many of us are sloooooow, and can't think past the zipper. I guess not enough blood gets to the brain.



Gatemouth's picture
Submitted by Gatemouth on Mon, 04/20/2009 - 5:53am.

A Room 8 piece attracting double digits comments and animated discussion, even if only tangentially related to the orginal report.

Wouldn't life be great if Room 8 was alive again, and Ben Smith came back and it was 2005 and the Politicker suddenly became like's Rick's Cafe Americanne---the place where everydody goes

A man can dream, can't he?

Keep posting--even you, Wallner, I'm having such a good ole time, I'm almost getting teary.



Submitted by Semantic Police (not verified) on Mon, 04/20/2009 - 9:07am.

Calling Rwallnerny a "Stupid Fuck" was just wrong.

The proper designation would be "Ignorant Fuck"


Submitted by mole333 on Mon, 04/20/2009 - 9:46am.

Hi all,

 When I saw someone calling Wallner a stupid fuck I first thought it was Bouldin. But now everyone seems to be saying it.

Rock, I think most people take your  question to mean what are the differences between same sex marriage and polygamy that makes one acceptable and one not. You seem to be asking a narrower question.

I will give my answer to your question, though I am pretty sure I am also not answering your narrow question directly.

 Actually first I want to give my wife's answer which is what is wrong with accepting polygamy as long as everyone's rights and equality are recognized? This can be viewed by a slight change in your question: If you give freedom of speech to Quakers,  under what legal basis do you then deny Nazis that right? The answer is you don't no matter how much you hate Nazis. If you give religious freedom to Jews, under what legal basis do you then deny that right to practitioners of Shango? The answer is, all other legalities taken into account, you don't.

My wife's arguement would be the right of any consenting adult to enter willingly into a legal contract with other consenting adults should be recognized. Polygamy included as long as there is no gender bias (meaning polyandry is inclued) or other inequalities built in.

 I am perhaps not as traditional (recognizing that polygamy is one of our oldest traditions) because I feel that there is an inherant inequality built into polygamy. As an institution it has always been intended to subordinate the child producing women to a powerful man. Of course marriage between one man and one woman also has usually had that inherant inequality, but a legal partnership between any two people is more inherantly equal in modern society than if you start recognizing a legal union among more people. A marriage between two people is clearly an equal partnership under modern American laws even if this is not always the case in reality. The power dynamics of polygamy to me seem far more suspect and remind me more of a matrimonial Ponzi scheme than a fair romantic business deal.

IN a sense my wife answers you question: you don't and you shouldn't because society should let adults be adults as long as everyone's fundamental rights are protected. My answer is more vague because I question the ability of legal polygamy to protect everyone's fundamental rights adequately given the traditional nature of polygamy as, in essence, a harem of subordinate women dominated by an often abusive male.

I would also like to to agree with what others have said: whatever questions are opened up by recognizing same-sex marriage doesn't alter the fundamental fairness of same-sex marriage and the fundamental inequality and unfairness of denying same-sex couples the same rights, or even separate but equal "rights," as opposite-sex couples.

 Finally, I am all for getting government out of "marriage" and making it ALL civil unions. Using the term marriage to refer to a merely religious and personal bond, with no legal ramifications (as in the case when my wife and I signed our Ketubah, witnessed by a Rabbi) and put all the legal aspects in a separate category called a civil union which can be between any consenting adults. I don't think this will happen because words are sometimes the hardest things to change and it might even be easier keeping the word "marriage" and forcing the right wing to accept fair access to that word by all. But I think it is better to completely separate the religious and personal aspects of the union from the legal and government regulated aspects of it.


Submitted by Blackie Drew (not verified) on Mon, 04/20/2009 - 3:46pm.
I am just an observer here but I find this thread to be rather interesting. So tell me agian why I cant marry a woman and a man at the same time? After all I am bi-sexual.  
Mary Alice Miller's picture
Submitted by Mary Alice Miller on Mon, 04/20/2009 - 10:10pm.
Or just you?

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Tue, 04/21/2009 - 1:31am.

The bottom line is that there is no such thing as a "same-sex family" any more than a "same-sex marriage".

When someone decides to knowingly break from what is the established norm AND what is considered by the overwhelming majority of society to be moral, they should hardly be surprised that their actions don't meet with unilateral acceptance.

No one is required to accept homosexuality as a normal way of life. For most it isn't. Homosexuals are entitled to the same dignity and respect as all other human beings - however, attempting to force people into acceptance of their sexual behavior is not only ridiculous - it is unconstitutional.


Mary Alice Miller's picture
Submitted by Mary Alice Miller on Tue, 04/21/2009 - 5:52am.
That is what was said about Blacks, pre-Civil Rights and pre-Civil War.

Gatemouth's picture
Submitted by Gatemouth on Tue, 04/21/2009 - 7:26am.

Mole333: Good to have you drop by--come more often. And tell Bouldin to come as well, so that Wallner gets called something more witty, and more stinging, than "stupid fuck."

 I think your wife misses the point that polygamous marriages, unlike same sex ones,  cannot be recognized merely by adding them into the current statutory scheme, because they don't fit into the current statutory scheme and would require enactment of a whole new body of law --a whole new body of law no one is even asking for  
 
As to you other suggestion, to eliminate civil marriage and replace it with civil union for all, it is hardly original--Michael Kinsley proposed it months ago--but it won't work, because people want to obtain something called "marriage" without getting it through a religion 
 
Which is the crux of the problem--the word is loaded, which is why avoiding it makes getting people their civil rights somewhat easier. 

Not that I like that fact, even without the civil rights issue, there is something to be said for calling things what they are.  
 
As to Mr. Anonymous Nonsense, there are all sorts of Families--try visiting Family Court and see--as Mary Alice so thoroughly demonstrates, they exist with or without the benefit of marriage. Some of those families are or were the products of matrimony and some are or were headed by same sex couples--others, well, the scenarios vary. In many cases, they "knowingly break from what is the established norm AND what is considered by the overwhelming majority of society to be moral". Nonetheless, society did not turn away and say "we don't like, so we won't acknowledge;" instead, to protect the welfare of children and others, we have altered the laws to account for the realities. We need to do so again.     

No one is asking YOU to accept homosexuality as a normal way of life. We are asking for government to acknowledge the reality of these families and allow them to access a legally sanctioned system of family organization in order to ensure the well-being of their families.

I happen to, on occassion, find certain heterosexual marriages to offend my sense of morality--the examples of Rudy Giuliani, Woody Allen, and Kennedy-Onasis spring to mind, and I'm sure I could think of others. I think it is not unlikely that a majority of the populace agrees with me. But the right of a particular couple  to marry should not be subject to popular plebescite. Rather, that right should be defined in a manner which yields to the needs of the society. Today, the needs of our society require that same sex couples be allowed to access the benefits of the matrimonial state. In fact, their needs seem far more compelling than the need of Mr. Allen to marry the legal sibling of his children.   

No law can force you into acceptance of someone's sexual behavior, although social stigma might do the trick. As to your learned knowledge of the constittution, I do wonder to which article you are refering.

 



Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Tue, 04/21/2009 - 11:36am.
I'd like to read more about Gatemouth's attempts at a menage a trois with bisexuals. All in favor say aye aye aye".
Submitted by Mariya (not verified) on Tue, 04/21/2009 - 1:29pm.
Rock, behave yourself 
Submitted by mole333 on Fri, 04/24/2009 - 11:45am.

Total Nonsense: You are describing your own view. If you want to impose your own morality on others, please move to Iran where that kind of thing is acceptable. No one asks you to participate in homosexuality. But you do not have the right to interfere with what others do in their personal lives and the law also should not interfere with what they do with their personal lives.

Gate: I don't think my wife would consider it relavent that the laws need to be changed to allow polgamy. I think she would emphasize that people should be allowed to make their own personal choices on an equal basis with others without interference from other individuals or legal obstacles. 

As to the idea that government should stop being in the marriage business and ONLY do civil unions, I think I first heard that arguement on the Al Franken show on Air America some 4 years ago. But it would be hard to do. I think it would be easier to get gay marriage through, complete with the word "marriage" than effectively separating the marriage and civil union concepts.


Submitted by Flywheel (not verified) on Fri, 04/24/2009 - 3:05pm.

Mole's missus seems to be talking apples and oranges. It is one thing to ask the state to enforce your private contract--that, for instance, is the basis of palimony. It is quite another to ask the state to create a body of law to facilitate a statutory version of your private contractual agreement.

Gay people and polygamists both can enforce their private contractual relationships in court, to the extent that those agreements are not void for public policy reasons --which is more a problem for the polygamists than it is for the gays. What they cannot do is enter into the state-created system called marriage which embodies 200 rights and responsibiliites automatically, including many things that a contact between two parties could never facilitate, like surviviors rights and benefits. 

For gays to enter such a system would create little problem. Cross-out the gender differentiations and they fit pretty easily. However, it is impossible for polygamist to enter into such a system because they do not fit. One cannot load "Big Love" onto a bicycle built for two. The best the law can do is to regard less of their contracutal arrangements as being void for public policy. And I suspect that given the Mole family's concern for equality, they'd just as soon keep most of that public policy in place.    


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